Nurse practitioners and the PCMH

31 May
2009

 

Several comments to this blog have addressed the inclusion of nurse practitioners as possible leaders of medical homes (only if the state certifies NPs for independent practice).  Because of the first two comments, I must clarify that I am not talking about NPs working with physicians, but rather my comments refer to NPs in independent practice. Here is one physician comment:

Dr Block makes a good point. There seems to be some cognitive dissonance on the part of those trying to bolster primary care, while at the same time accepting a much broader role for midlevels delivering it.

Either the comprehensive care is complex, difficult, and best provided by an extensively trained (and expensive) physician, or it’s usually straightforward, algorithm driven, not particularly complex, and best provided by a less expensive midlevel (with much less training).

Arguing those providing comprehensive care should be paid more, then arguing that we should have midlevels delivering a lot more comprehensive care seems schizophrenic. And it’s not convincing.

A nurse practitioner answers:

An interesting topic and comments that follow. It is obvious that even many “medical people” do not understang the role of the nurse practitioner since their comments are minimalizing and denigrating – Jiffy Lube? Fine – keep on thinking that NPs are “simple” and can’t handle “complex” patients. We want to work together with you so that we can care for the many patients that don’t have providers. It’s ok for NPs to care for the un or underinsured but don’t let them care for the patients with real insurance. There is no evidence that NPs order any more tests or referrals than any other provider.

We as NPs will continue going into primary care when many physicians completely avoid it and are leaving in droves. We want to partner with you – not so that you can supervise us – but so that we can collaborate and bring best practices to our patients. Is it not possible that NPs have areas of specialty where we are better equipped to handle a certain situation or patient? Perhaps you all have worked with what you consider substandard NPs – has that not happened with your physician colleagues?

Bob Doherty addressed this issue on Friday – Do internists have confidence in their own training when compared to NPs?

H.R. 2350 goes beyond ACP policy, in that it would allow NP-led practices to qualify as PCMHs, not just for demonstration projects as proposed by ACP, but under a permanent Medicare PCMH benefit, starting in 2011. ACP’s top physician leadership made the judgment that H.R. 2350 merits the College’s strong endorsement, even with the more expansive NP language, since perhaps 95 percent of the bill is based on ACP policy.

In the days since ACP endorsed the bill, some ACP members have expressed concern that ACP’s support will further blur the lines between general internal medicine and advanced practice nursing, making it even harder to persuade young people to go through the extra years of training to become a physician But if internists truly believe in the value of their training, shouldn’t they also be confident that they will be able to show such value in a medical home model where the outcomes of care can be measured?

My bet is that the PCMH will help support the value of internal medicine training by providing a consistent way to measure the outcomes, effectiveness and efficiency of care provided by internists, even when compared to nursing-led PCMHs that operate within the limits of their licenses and against the same evaluation benchmarks. And, as I’ve written about before, our chances of getting primary care legislation could be irreparably weakened if physicians and nurses are viewed as being in competition with each other, rather than as allies on the need for more of both.

I understand the politics behind the inclusion of NPs as potential PCMH leaders.  As I have written many times, the problem stems from the semantic drift that the term primary care has undergone over the past 3 decades.  I recently wrote about the levels of primary care.  My rant was meant to emphasize our collective confusion over this term.

If we mean routine episodic care or routine chronic disease management then we probably have the primary care that politicians conceive.  Internists do these things as part of their overall more comprehensive care.

I will try to define the problem once again.  The value of a well trained physician comes from recognizing the long tail events. The long tail zone – when do I enter it

We do not measure long tail events as a quality measure, because it would be very difficult to enumerate such events.  So we have a classic important concept which is not easily measured.  I will continue to insist that diagnostic errors are extremely important.  I heard a colleague state that diagnostic errors are the most common reason for malpractice lawsuits.  Yet our current quality measures ignore diagnosis.

Well trained physicians excel at diagnosis.  I remember during training that the greatest praise for one of our heros was that he was a great diagnostician.

Our primary care debate often ignores this issue.  I doubt that many NPs have the diagnostic acumen of well trained internists and family physicians.  I might argue that long tail diagnosistics define a different level of expertise than the concept that primary care currently represents. 

So I am personally against the NP clause, but understand the political necessity.  Politics requires the art of compromise.  In supporting HR #2350 I am willing to compromise, but I do not have to be completely happy.

Related posts:

  1. In which I respond to angry comments
  2. Dazed and Confused – Levels of primary care?
  3. DrRich is right and wrong
  4. The semantics of primary care
  5. Are retainer practices the model for PCMH?

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7 Responses to Nurse practitioners and the PCMH

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rolf nesse md

May 31st, 2009 at 9:51 am

This is a classic I vrs we debate. What is currently wrong in american medicine is that everyone is looking out for his or her specific well being financially. A PCMH is an entity in which the patients well being superceeds that of the individual practitioner. Looking foreward it is clear that if we are to have decent care for all americans , then all of the different medical intelegences, must cooperate together for the patients well being.

I actually understand the PCMH, in that I practice in one already, as a family doctor working for Group Health Cooperative. Our successful model of the PCMH, demands the full use of not only NP’s but PA’s Pharmacists, PT’s and our medical assistants. Each group has added significant new clinical firepower toward the patients benefit. It is about teamwork.

Rolf Nesse MD

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solo dr

May 31st, 2009 at 10:28 am

Currently I have nurse practitioner students rotating with me and I worked with nurse practitioners in residency. Currently many specialists have PAs and Nurse practitioners to handle the office visits, while the specialists go off to do procedures. My local hospitals use PAs and Nurse Practitioners on the hospitalist teams, and many primary care physicians have NPs or PAs to help with the office visits for acute problems or updates on chronic problems. Most of them have it setup so that the physician sees the patient every other visit.
I find that PAs, Nurse Practitioners, and residents are similar in that they know some things but do not know as much when the first start in practice.
The practice of medicine requires years of experience beyond book learning and beyond formal school. When PAs, NPs, and residents start out in practice, their knowledge is not as strong as a primary care person with 5 or more years of experience. I think most NPs and PAs can be trained to do much of what we do in primary care. The main fear is that NPs and PAs will takeover much of the easier aspects of outpatient primary care, while primary care physician salaries and fees continue to decrease with no cost of living increase. Currently NPs and PAs are filling a void in areas where there is a shortage of physicians and are are an overall valuable additional to the healthcare team.

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NPs Save Lives

May 31st, 2009 at 1:08 pm

I think that any provider is only as good as their capacity to learn and evolve. I have seen both NPs and MDs who were content not to expand their knowledge base and therefore become stagnant. I pride myself in being an excellent diagnostician because that’s what I am most interested in. Not every doctor or NP or PA picks up on the nuances of patient’s complaints and there will be mistakes made. We are all human with weakness and false senses of pride. It needs to stop being a turf war and become about taking care of the patients in the best way we know how which is through collaboration.

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Bohdan A. Oryshkevich, MD, MPH

May 31st, 2009 at 5:24 pm

There are many excellent posts here. I could agree with all of them. The long tail concept presented by Dr. C is extremely important in this discussion.

The reality is that there is no replacement for intelligence or for learning. Medical doctors certainly do not have the monopoly on either. I heard of a nurse a long time ago at Cornell who was the daughter of one of the authors of Beeson and McDermott, later Cecil Medicine. She apparently worked in the ICU and knew more than any doctor who crossed her path.

The reality is also that it takes years to acquire the knowledge to be a superb internist even in today’s world of CTs, MRIs, and PCRs. Maybe more so since now there is more knowledge to master and more cost at stake. Today doctors do make a difference. One hundred years ago, they did not. So knowledge, concentration, and concern are vital.

Structuring a learning environment so that medical students can master that knowledge and acquiring lifelong learning skills is not easy. If medical students are going to be put into debt and are constantly thinking of how to acquire procedural skills in order to make the living they expect, then the whole process is subverted.

In such cases, medical students and the medical schools which have created this predicament are devaluing the very in-depth education that medical schools seek to offer and that the medical students need in order to differentiate themselves from lesser trained nurse practitioners. This is a case of the medical profession destroying itself from within. Medical school deans have have not valued their charges and undermined their future. Rather, they have confused financial and mental hazing for medical education.

The excuse that there is no money for medical education is ridiculous. We spend more money per capita than any society and have the most indebted students.

Nurse practitioners have filled the vacuum created by medical schools in the cognitive and primary care fields of medicine. Society needs them even though they may be less well trained.

The losers in this situation are not so much the doctors but the patients who would benefit from more skilled doctors.

Medical education has prevented the emergence of real thought leaders and in depth trained clinicians. As David Satcher, the future Surgeon General, said nearly twenty years ago: Indebted medical students will not be capable of leading or reforming medicine in this country.

We are seeing the fruits of that self destruction today.

Bohdan A. Oryshkevich, MD, MPH

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Oskie94

May 31st, 2009 at 10:31 pm

Outpatient primary care should be delivered by mid-levels with physicians taking on more of a medical director role. The ideal PCMH would have staffing ratios similar to anesthesiologist: CRNA (approximately 1 MD/DO per midlevel). The care of the hospitalized patient should be coordinated by physician-hospitalists who too may do well to utilize midlevels for rounding, discharge planning, etc.

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guntermt

June 2nd, 2009 at 8:15 pm

This will be the death knell of primary care internal medicine. If you can arrive at the same career point with 4 years of school vs 11 years of school/ training, why would anyone choose to be a primary care physician. As the leader of a 20 person IM group with primary care, subspecialist, hospitalists and 2 NPs and 2 PAs and 19 years of personal experience, I know what I am talking about. I am appalled at the ACP and will not renew my membership. My colleagues are aghast at this as well.

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NPs Save Lives

June 5th, 2009 at 10:22 pm

Guntermt, I’m not sure who you think has only four years of schooling. I went to school for 7 years to achieve my ARNP degree. I have close to 84,000 dollars of student loan debt and certainly didn’t just jump in here without a lot of training. I don’t want to take over primary care, just be acknowledged that I do as well as some (not all) primary MDs. My collaborating MDs seem to think that I take excellent care of my patients and often come to me for advice. It’s a two way street.

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