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	<title>Comments on: Whither primary care</title>
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	<description>Internal medicine, American health care, and especially medical education</description>
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		<title>By: betsyw</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-2#comment-521476</link>
		<dc:creator>betsyw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:35:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521476</guid>
		<description>Adam Med student (med student 2, I believe)wrote: &quot;@betsyw: 

A single-payer system restricted to primary care physicians might be best. If the government were to pay all the salaries of the roughly 150,000 primary care physicians in this country, that comes out to about $15 billion (assuming a generous $100,000 untaxed salary). Factor in staff and building usage, and youâ€™re looking at maybe $30 billion.


It would be a start.  But how about creating a lower-tier cost of doing business system for primary care doctors.  Yes, creating clinics in which drs share equipment, staff, cost of supplies etc would help.  They should also have lower rent on the building, lower property insurance, have a means of providing free health care to nurses and staff and thereby pay less salaries.
(So many nurses cannot afford health care, it is ridiculous)  So the cost of doing business should be reduced to the minimum.  The money for health care (or what we used to call medicine) should all go to actual care and immediate support activities, and to those who actually deliver patient care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam Med student (med student 2, I believe)wrote: &#8220;@betsyw: </p>
<p>A single-payer system restricted to primary care physicians might be best. If the government were to pay all the salaries of the roughly 150,000 primary care physicians in this country, that comes out to about $15 billion (assuming a generous $100,000 untaxed salary). Factor in staff and building usage, and youâ€™re looking at maybe $30 billion.</p>
<p>It would be a start.  But how about creating a lower-tier cost of doing business system for primary care doctors.  Yes, creating clinics in which drs share equipment, staff, cost of supplies etc would help.  They should also have lower rent on the building, lower property insurance, have a means of providing free health care to nurses and staff and thereby pay less salaries.<br />
(So many nurses cannot afford health care, it is ridiculous)  So the cost of doing business should be reduced to the minimum.  The money for health care (or what we used to call medicine) should all go to actual care and immediate support activities, and to those who actually deliver patient care.</p>
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		<title>By: Ameendi Premed</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-2#comment-521473</link>
		<dc:creator>Ameendi Premed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 15:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521473</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s obvious that people are passionate about what is going on. It&#039;s also obvious that there is a huge problem with the system. Patients are not happy with the care they are receiving and doctors are not happy with the lack of care they are pushed into giving because of they high cost of doing their business.
Some of the people discussing their views of doctors with expensive watches and second wives seem to be basing their facts on a stereotype. Obviously, not all doctors can live that way. Those that do probably come from money already. Those people also sound jealous, which makes no sense, why in the world would you be jealous of someone that is has already had one failed marriage and spends their time spending money?
Anyway, most doctor&#039;s are not like that. My doctor is amazing. I shadowed her last summer. She really does a lot more than what we, the patients, think while we see her for those 10 minutes. She never once sat down in the 8 hours a day I was with her. She was running around the whole time: taking care of patients, filling out their paperwork, answering questions by phone from people looking for free care that they have come to expect, talking to people about how their lives are going, trying to reach out, dealing with a drug rep, trying to find free drug samples for those that cannot afford it in her practice, instructing nurses, worrying about bills and not being able to pay her bills because patients were canceling their appointments or where late setting her whole day back. It&#039;s not the doctor&#039;s that run behind, it&#039;s those people that show up 5-10 minutes late that set the practice back 30 minutes for everyone else.
We all want change. Arguing and trying to place blame will get nothing done.
Try to understand where the other is coming from w/o stereotyping or harboring ill will toward a stranger that you do not know.
You want a change? Come up with one, promote one, vote.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s obvious that people are passionate about what is going on. It&#8217;s also obvious that there is a huge problem with the system. Patients are not happy with the care they are receiving and doctors are not happy with the lack of care they are pushed into giving because of they high cost of doing their business.<br />
Some of the people discussing their views of doctors with expensive watches and second wives seem to be basing their facts on a stereotype. Obviously, not all doctors can live that way. Those that do probably come from money already. Those people also sound jealous, which makes no sense, why in the world would you be jealous of someone that is has already had one failed marriage and spends their time spending money?<br />
Anyway, most doctor&#8217;s are not like that. My doctor is amazing. I shadowed her last summer. She really does a lot more than what we, the patients, think while we see her for those 10 minutes. She never once sat down in the 8 hours a day I was with her. She was running around the whole time: taking care of patients, filling out their paperwork, answering questions by phone from people looking for free care that they have come to expect, talking to people about how their lives are going, trying to reach out, dealing with a drug rep, trying to find free drug samples for those that cannot afford it in her practice, instructing nurses, worrying about bills and not being able to pay her bills because patients were canceling their appointments or where late setting her whole day back. It&#8217;s not the doctor&#8217;s that run behind, it&#8217;s those people that show up 5-10 minutes late that set the practice back 30 minutes for everyone else.<br />
We all want change. Arguing and trying to place blame will get nothing done.<br />
Try to understand where the other is coming from w/o stereotyping or harboring ill will toward a stranger that you do not know.<br />
You want a change? Come up with one, promote one, vote.</p>
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		<title>By: AnonyMouse</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-2#comment-521467</link>
		<dc:creator>AnonyMouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:03:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521467</guid>
		<description>Cruser in AZ: If you have such disdain for doctors, don&#039;t go to one.  Especially if you think golf is affecting &quot;clear thinking.&quot;  I&#039;m sure whatever physician who has you as a patient will breathe a sigh of relief to see you go, if this is the attitude you take when you&#039;re in the office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cruser in AZ: If you have such disdain for doctors, don&#8217;t go to one.  Especially if you think golf is affecting &#8220;clear thinking.&#8221;  I&#8217;m sure whatever physician who has you as a patient will breathe a sigh of relief to see you go, if this is the attitude you take when you&#8217;re in the office.</p>
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		<title>By: The Viking</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-2#comment-521466</link>
		<dc:creator>The Viking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 17:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521466</guid>
		<description>&quot;Time to study now. Not sure if I should focus on pharmacological effects in treating disease or on researching how to spend an hour with every patient and still afford to pay malpractice insurance without a large inheritance.&quot;

Go for the inheritance. I do begin to  get the idea, however, that underneath all the concerned chat you (pl.)think you&#039;re doing everyone a favor by choosing medicine as a vocation. Don&#039;t. Be a golf coach, in the end you&#039;ll be happier and will meet beautiful rich women, some of them with their own breasts. 

The world will not collapse without you in your scrubs. Ok, it&#039;s already collapsing, but what&#039;s the big deal? Bunch of greedy bastards anyway.

Just do the whole John Gault thing and withdraw your unhumble excellence because we (the non-doctors, the unwashed, unscientific) are not worthy of it anyway. C&#039;mon, call the world&#039;s bluff - just pull out now and let the chips fall where they may. 

You don&#039;t want all the liability and debt and we&#039;re tired of little weasels whining about the cost of medical school so let&#039;s end it all now. Ok?

As another aside, could hospitals or doctor&#039;s offices get any uglier colors schemes? Is it important to someone somewhere for a trip to the emergency room to be like visiting a military consignment center? It&#039;s one thing to be a good scientist but is it really necessary to dress like Sarah Palin&#039;s gynecologist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Time to study now. Not sure if I should focus on pharmacological effects in treating disease or on researching how to spend an hour with every patient and still afford to pay malpractice insurance without a large inheritance.&#8221;</p>
<p>Go for the inheritance. I do begin to  get the idea, however, that underneath all the concerned chat you (pl.)think you&#8217;re doing everyone a favor by choosing medicine as a vocation. Don&#8217;t. Be a golf coach, in the end you&#8217;ll be happier and will meet beautiful rich women, some of them with their own breasts. </p>
<p>The world will not collapse without you in your scrubs. Ok, it&#8217;s already collapsing, but what&#8217;s the big deal? Bunch of greedy bastards anyway.</p>
<p>Just do the whole John Gault thing and withdraw your unhumble excellence because we (the non-doctors, the unwashed, unscientific) are not worthy of it anyway. C&#8217;mon, call the world&#8217;s bluff &#8211; just pull out now and let the chips fall where they may. </p>
<p>You don&#8217;t want all the liability and debt and we&#8217;re tired of little weasels whining about the cost of medical school so let&#8217;s end it all now. Ok?</p>
<p>As another aside, could hospitals or doctor&#8217;s offices get any uglier colors schemes? Is it important to someone somewhere for a trip to the emergency room to be like visiting a military consignment center? It&#8217;s one thing to be a good scientist but is it really necessary to dress like Sarah Palin&#8217;s gynecologist?</p>
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		<title>By: The Viking</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-2#comment-521465</link>
		<dc:creator>The Viking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521465</guid>
		<description>Pay attention: my doctor knows that if he accidentally cuts my testicles off while doing an ear exam I will skin and eat him. Does he give up his legal protections to save himself from me after I surrender my right to sue him for screwing up? No, of course not, he&#039;d be all, &quot;Help, help, don&#039;t let him hurt me, I was tired!&quot; On the other hand, any man who lets guys near his balls with a knife is crazy and needs medical attention.

As a related aside, what is the point of keeping interns and other doctor lackeys up all night several nights in a row? this pathetic and dangerous form of hazing epidomizes the leadership of the medical profession: juveniles. I believe at Yale they used to make skull and bones candidates mud wrestle, and fling excrement at each other for entry into the titans of industry circuit, isn&#039;t it time you guys grew up?

Doctors are not heroes or divine beings or in any other way an elite, except by their own invention. They are people, members of a community in some cases, and are duly respected as such. (Give me a choice between a plumber with 5 years of experience and a plumber with 35 years of experience - not a contest.) With that said, many doctors, however, are just assholes like in any other profession. I had an anaesthesiologist student of mine take me out to dinner a year ago, and, after Thai food, he read me the bible. Apparently, I did not respond to his gobbley-gook as intended and he and his wife stared at me blankly, waiting for something to happen. Picture me doing that to you now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pay attention: my doctor knows that if he accidentally cuts my testicles off while doing an ear exam I will skin and eat him. Does he give up his legal protections to save himself from me after I surrender my right to sue him for screwing up? No, of course not, he&#8217;d be all, &#8220;Help, help, don&#8217;t let him hurt me, I was tired!&#8221; On the other hand, any man who lets guys near his balls with a knife is crazy and needs medical attention.</p>
<p>As a related aside, what is the point of keeping interns and other doctor lackeys up all night several nights in a row? this pathetic and dangerous form of hazing epidomizes the leadership of the medical profession: juveniles. I believe at Yale they used to make skull and bones candidates mud wrestle, and fling excrement at each other for entry into the titans of industry circuit, isn&#8217;t it time you guys grew up?</p>
<p>Doctors are not heroes or divine beings or in any other way an elite, except by their own invention. They are people, members of a community in some cases, and are duly respected as such. (Give me a choice between a plumber with 5 years of experience and a plumber with 35 years of experience &#8211; not a contest.) With that said, many doctors, however, are just assholes like in any other profession. I had an anaesthesiologist student of mine take me out to dinner a year ago, and, after Thai food, he read me the bible. Apparently, I did not respond to his gobbley-gook as intended and he and his wife stared at me blankly, waiting for something to happen. Picture me doing that to you now.</p>
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		<title>By: The Viking</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-1#comment-521464</link>
		<dc:creator>The Viking</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 16:31:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521464</guid>
		<description>In the absence of a community bond between doctors and patients General Practice medicine becomes systematized, computerized, coded and corrupt. In the end the corrupting influence is money. The medical community can&#039;t quite wrap their mind around the notion that their $200,000 of medical school loans are somehow comparable to the $200,000 of medical debt that Bob Smith incurred when he was bitten at work by a tick and no one knew what he had so they tested him for everything. Bob had no insurance (which, as we&#039;ve already agreed is a vile evil thing run by mormons) so he is indebted, essentially, forever. Bob and Adam should drink at the same bar, but they do not.

Why is Adam&#039;s debt less just or more pressing than Bob&#039;s? (Well, for one thing, the bank assumes Adam will eventually be able to pay it back, while the same bank assumes Bob is an out of work loser who can&#039;t raise his hands over his head.) At what level are Bob and Adam connected? Because Adam has some of the skills necessary to track down Bob&#039;s tick bite should Adam get to pay off his $200,000 first? Ever? The key to the solution is the missing &quot;community,&quot; and that is missing because it dissolved into malls. Mall Medicine: it has a solidly Middle-Ages feel to it, doesn&#039;t it?

Not to beat a medieval horse to death with a mall, but &quot;the market&quot; seems to have developed some leaks lately and the model for a market based medical care is teetering on the edge of collapse like every other industy which sucked up deregulation like Clarence Thomas pulling a pubic hair through a straw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the absence of a community bond between doctors and patients General Practice medicine becomes systematized, computerized, coded and corrupt. In the end the corrupting influence is money. The medical community can&#8217;t quite wrap their mind around the notion that their $200,000 of medical school loans are somehow comparable to the $200,000 of medical debt that Bob Smith incurred when he was bitten at work by a tick and no one knew what he had so they tested him for everything. Bob had no insurance (which, as we&#8217;ve already agreed is a vile evil thing run by mormons) so he is indebted, essentially, forever. Bob and Adam should drink at the same bar, but they do not.</p>
<p>Why is Adam&#8217;s debt less just or more pressing than Bob&#8217;s? (Well, for one thing, the bank assumes Adam will eventually be able to pay it back, while the same bank assumes Bob is an out of work loser who can&#8217;t raise his hands over his head.) At what level are Bob and Adam connected? Because Adam has some of the skills necessary to track down Bob&#8217;s tick bite should Adam get to pay off his $200,000 first? Ever? The key to the solution is the missing &#8220;community,&#8221; and that is missing because it dissolved into malls. Mall Medicine: it has a solidly Middle-Ages feel to it, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>
<p>Not to beat a medieval horse to death with a mall, but &#8220;the market&#8221; seems to have developed some leaks lately and the model for a market based medical care is teetering on the edge of collapse like every other industy which sucked up deregulation like Clarence Thomas pulling a pubic hair through a straw.</p>
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		<title>By: medaholic</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-1#comment-521461</link>
		<dc:creator>medaholic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 08:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521461</guid>
		<description>Because of the coming shortage of PCP, first line family doctors will start to receive better compensation due to their high demand. It&#039;s already happening. Economic pressures will eventually make it necessary to correct the lack of primary care.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because of the coming shortage of PCP, first line family doctors will start to receive better compensation due to their high demand. It&#8217;s already happening. Economic pressures will eventually make it necessary to correct the lack of primary care.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam, Med Student</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-1#comment-521452</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam, Med Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521452</guid>
		<description>Time to study now. Not sure if I should focus on pharmacological effects in treating disease or on researching how to spend an hour with every patient and still afford to pay malpractice insurance without a large inheritance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Time to study now. Not sure if I should focus on pharmacological effects in treating disease or on researching how to spend an hour with every patient and still afford to pay malpractice insurance without a large inheritance.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam, Med Student</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-1#comment-521451</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam, Med Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521451</guid>
		<description>Also, eliminating frivolous lawsuits through malpractice tort reform reduces the stress on physicians. Stress is a big factor in poor decision-making. Tort reform also cuts back on unnecessary testing that physicians currently have to perform in order to cover their asses. Every testing procedure has a risk associated with performing it, takes time, and requires more paperwork and documentation. Take that away, and you&#039;re saving time. Time = money.

The problem is that currently, the ABA is free market. Health insurance companies operate in a free market. But physicians don&#039;t. Read into it what you will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, eliminating frivolous lawsuits through malpractice tort reform reduces the stress on physicians. Stress is a big factor in poor decision-making. Tort reform also cuts back on unnecessary testing that physicians currently have to perform in order to cover their asses. Every testing procedure has a risk associated with performing it, takes time, and requires more paperwork and documentation. Take that away, and you&#8217;re saving time. Time = money.</p>
<p>The problem is that currently, the ABA is free market. Health insurance companies operate in a free market. But physicians don&#8217;t. Read into it what you will.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam, Med Student</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3933/comment-page-1#comment-521450</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam, Med Student</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 19:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.medrants.com/?p=3933#comment-521450</guid>
		<description>@The Viking:

&quot;Adam, do you actually believe that freeing doctors from the threat of suit will lower health care charges? Do they not teach you lads about human nature? It wonâ€™t work, Adam, people are greedy. Freed from supervision a few doctors will see â€œopportunityâ€; then a few more, and finally a flood.&quot;

The only thing missing from the equation if you eliminate frivolous lawsuits is the cost of malpractice insurance. Medicare and Medicaid will see reduction in costs and will thus reduce reimbursement (which they are in control of, not physicians; and the government isn&#039;t one to miss out on the opportunity to cut pay to physicians), health care insurance providers will follow suit, and thus the price for the uninsured will drop as well because you can&#039;t charge a patient more than you charge the government or an insurance company. In the end, your health care premiums and taxes go down, and if they don&#039;t it&#039;s the government or your insurance company that&#039;s at fault for not returning their cost savings to you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@The Viking:</p>
<p>&#8220;Adam, do you actually believe that freeing doctors from the threat of suit will lower health care charges? Do they not teach you lads about human nature? It wonâ€™t work, Adam, people are greedy. Freed from supervision a few doctors will see â€œopportunityâ€; then a few more, and finally a flood.&#8221;</p>
<p>The only thing missing from the equation if you eliminate frivolous lawsuits is the cost of malpractice insurance. Medicare and Medicaid will see reduction in costs and will thus reduce reimbursement (which they are in control of, not physicians; and the government isn&#8217;t one to miss out on the opportunity to cut pay to physicians), health care insurance providers will follow suit, and thus the price for the uninsured will drop as well because you can&#8217;t charge a patient more than you charge the government or an insurance company. In the end, your health care premiums and taxes go down, and if they don&#8217;t it&#8217;s the government or your insurance company that&#8217;s at fault for not returning their cost savings to you.</p>
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