"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - HL Mencken
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"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." - Confucius
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"The good physician treats the disease; the great physician treats the patient who has the disease" - Sir William Osler
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" The best test of a person's character is how he or she treats those with less power." - Bob Sutton
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them - well, I have others." - Groucho Marx
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple." - Charles Mingus
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"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesman and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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"This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around." - Talking Heads, Life During Wartime
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"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it." - Hillel, Talmud, Shabbath 31a
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"You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing." - Thomas Sowell
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"An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup." - HL Mencken
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"If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." - Abraham Maslow
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"A great teacher is one who realizes that he himself is also a student and whose goal is not to dictate the answers, but to stimulate his students creativity enough so that they go out and find the answers themselves." - Herbie Hancock
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"There are no facts, only interpretations." - Nietzsche
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"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you do know and what you don't." - Anatole France
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"In character, in manner, in style, in all things, the supreme excellence is simplicity." - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Workouts by month - Goal 200 from 11/1/09 through 10/31/10
http://ow.ly/1mYi7 - ABIM MOC program - two differing viewpoints - you can guess my voteMarch 16, 2010 5:06
RT @yejnes: My thoughts on the annual exam, etc., final letter ACP Internist, March 2010 http://bit.ly/9FNcXn wel-stated & importantMarch 15, 2010 12:47
A note to the professors, from the "real" world, on the use of ICDs in a fee for service community... http://ow.ly/1jaPy - great postMarch 13, 2010 2:19
RT @paulinechen: New "Doctor and Patient"; Learning to Keep Patients Safe in a Culture of Fear http://nyti.ms/bYA14V - blog post comingMarch 12, 2010 1:35
RT @tom_peters: @kevinmd Spoken like an MD. - true primary care is very complex - it is not simple care -March 11, 2010 12:43
RT @efalchuk: Seriously, what is Nancy Pelosi Talking About? http://bit.ly/9sHSc2 #healthreform #hcr #healthcare think Dazed and ConfusedMarch 10, 2010 7:53
Obama Says Health Overhaul Should Trump Politics - http://nyti.ms/bwKRyo - and he is correctMarch 8, 2010 7:28
@BertDecker multiples of 37 - trivial - any factor of 111 would factor into the others. The key here is that 37 * 3 = 111March 7, 2010 9:00
We made rounds on an 82 year old man today. Because his electrolyte panel revealed a bicarbonate level of 40, we order an ABG. The patient has known COPD and CHF. He was intubated until 2 days ago. He received aggressive diuresis for volume overload. Now his ABG reveals:
ABG
pH
7.46
pCO2
66
pO2
61
calc HCO3
46
Questions – what is/are the acid base disorders? What would you do for the patient?
A primary metabolic alkalosis (probably contraction alkalosis) with a coexisting respiratory acidosis (possibly compensatory, but given the COPD and hypoxia more likely completely independent). With a PaO2 of 61, it seems like you’re going to be quite possibly between a rock and a hard place; he’s likely still fluid overloaded giving some element of pulmonary edema with resulting hypoxia, but he’s intravascularly depleted with the contraction alkalosis. Other than the obvious “supplemental oxygen”, maybe try a little bit of gentle hydration and hope that he starts autodieuresing? Or CPAP/BiPAP — if he’ll tolerate it, that is.
Of course, since I’m a 4th year med student, anything I write is likely to be very overconfident and undereffective… [grin]
accidentally submitted my response too soon.
Intended response below:
If I’m reading the post correctly, the patient presented SOB in presumed HF/COPD exacerbation. He was intubated and aggressively diuresed. Now 2 days after extubation his bicarb is 40 and ABG is posted.
He has a multiple reasons for a metabolic alkalosis:
1) renal compensation for resp. acidosis
2) hypokalemia and hypochloremia from diuresis
3) hyperaldo from CHF
4) Post-hypercapnic
Determining which player is the primary insult requires looking at the electrolyte panel, and possibly urinary chloride. Given his recent h/o ventilation and the mention of this pt. in a post. I would suspect post-hypercapnic alkalosis is a contributor. My understanding is that the slow renal compensation results in a lag when ventilation rapidly corrects PCO2 and previously acidotic pts become alkalotic. This condition is exacerbated by chloride loss from diuretics. If my theory is correct than the patient became alkalotic in the ICU and diuresis worsened the alkalosis through chloride loss (not sure of the exact mechanism here) and the patient has not yet normalized.
Acetazolamide has been shown to increase renal bicarb excretion and correct post-hypercapnic alkalosis quickly. Yet, in this pt. I would just replete chloride and potassium with KCL and/or NaCl.
PO2 of 61 correlates to an O2 sat near 90%. Supplemental O2 would not necessarily be needed and may further increased PCO2 by reducing RR and minute ventilation. In this case, I would give no more than 2 L by NC.
patient’s CHF and COPD lead to poor gas exchange which leads CO2 retention leading to central chemoreceptors being adapted to chronically high pCO2, and so the peripheral receptors are keeping the patient’s breathing levels steady from low paO2.
His kidneys are fully compensating for the respiratory acidosis.
Avoid giving supplemental oxygen which could depress peripheral receptors and lead to respiratory distress.
Using potassium-sparing and loop-diuretics (if that’s how you define ‘aggressive’) would lead to hypokalemia. Give concentrated potassium IV.
Eric – Stewart acid-base predicts that diuretics cause a hypochloraemic alkalosis.
I agree with Eric that there is a metabolic alkalosis (from diuretic use) with a superimposed respiratory acidosis such that the resulting alkalaemia is minimal.
What I would do for the patient: ignore the acid-base, and treat the patient. Is he clinically well? What was his premorbid level of functioning and SpO2? It may be that the metabolic alkalosis is depressing his respiratory drive (leading to the depressed PO2) but if he is not in distress from this, I would leave it alone. If he is still having problems CCF I would optimise Tx for that first. The CAL will not kill him acutely so I would ignore that, and the metabolic alkalosis will resolve itself once the aggressive natriuresis (and ensuing diuresis) ceases — the kidneys are very efficient at getting rid of HCO3.
I would like to see this patient’s electrolytes, especially the Cl and Na. It may be that he may benefit from very gentle 3NS.
patient has 2 problem beforehand-
1.COPD he should have CO2 alredy increased at his level of respiratory insufficiency before intubation aggravated by acute on chronic heart failure
2.CHF which has an element of hyperaldosteronism as defence mechanism to increase effecive arterial volume.
in this scenerio as decompesation sets in respiratory and acute heart failure triggered aggressive therapy: ventilator therapy which is needed and diuretic therapy to possibly control pulmonary edema.possibly thiscourse of treatment continued in right earnest till it was seen his parameters improved to an usual normal values.he was extubated.
present scenerio:
he has alkalemia due to
1.overzealous ventilatio on ventilator to make pCO2 exactly normal which is equavalent to hyperventilation and alkalosis kidney appropriately responding producing more HCO3-. With extubation this cotinued producing metabolic alkalosis.
2.Aggressive diuretic therapy with loop diuretics which causes along with ECF volume loss excassive chloride loss. body volume control mechanism now to retain Na+ require HCO3- as anion resulting metabolic alkalosis.as secondary hyperaldosteronism may also produce hypokalemia.
this alkalosis may produce inhibition of respiratory center producing hypercapnia and hypoxia which is present in this patient.
Treatment:
1.On cardiac front: as effective circulatory volume is reduced from disease and drug it should be cautiosly replenished with both NaCl and KCl administration. as hyperaldosteronism is present aldosteron antagoist like spironolacton should be prescribed. diuretic therapy should be administered moe judiciously.Other cardiac active drugs like ACE-ihibitor or ARB-antagonist or even digitalis prescribed. Betablocker is probably cotraindicated here.
2.On respiratory front as he is just out of ventilator no point jumping into it again. noninvasive ventilaion with BiPAP or even CPAP may be tried.To inrease effective ventilation administration of bronchodilator or agentlike ipatropium may be administered.
B
7 Responses to A challenging ABG
Genius
March 4th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
What are his symptoms?
In any case, don’t be a hero. He’s 82. Give him some O2 (and no, it won’t suppress his breathing). The man is a chronic CO2 retainer. Less is more.
If he has a very low EF, fix his forward-flow as much as you can.
Mike
March 4th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
A primary metabolic alkalosis (probably contraction alkalosis) with a coexisting respiratory acidosis (possibly compensatory, but given the COPD and hypoxia more likely completely independent). With a PaO2 of 61, it seems like you’re going to be quite possibly between a rock and a hard place; he’s likely still fluid overloaded giving some element of pulmonary edema with resulting hypoxia, but he’s intravascularly depleted with the contraction alkalosis. Other than the obvious “supplemental oxygen”, maybe try a little bit of gentle hydration and hope that he starts autodieuresing? Or CPAP/BiPAP — if he’ll tolerate it, that is.
Of course, since I’m a 4th year med student, anything I write is likely to be very overconfident and undereffective… [grin]
Mike
ABG
March 4th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Primary metabolic alkalosis, with superimposed respiratory acidosis
(expected Pco2 = 51 – 55)
expected pH = 7.46
expected CO2 = 67
expected HCO3- = 46
According to: http://www.medcalc.com/acidbase.html
Alkalosis due to Lasix (contraction alkalosis)? Treat w BiPAP and O2? Needs CXR and BNPep. PE in DDx?
More here:
http://casesblog.blogspot.com/2007/02/acid-base-balance-cases-and-calculators.html
Eric Judd
March 4th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
accidentally submitted my response too soon.
Intended response below:
If I’m reading the post correctly, the patient presented SOB in presumed HF/COPD exacerbation. He was intubated and aggressively diuresed. Now 2 days after extubation his bicarb is 40 and ABG is posted.
He has a multiple reasons for a metabolic alkalosis:
1) renal compensation for resp. acidosis
2) hypokalemia and hypochloremia from diuresis
3) hyperaldo from CHF
4) Post-hypercapnic
Determining which player is the primary insult requires looking at the electrolyte panel, and possibly urinary chloride. Given his recent h/o ventilation and the mention of this pt. in a post. I would suspect post-hypercapnic alkalosis is a contributor. My understanding is that the slow renal compensation results in a lag when ventilation rapidly corrects PCO2 and previously acidotic pts become alkalotic. This condition is exacerbated by chloride loss from diuretics. If my theory is correct than the patient became alkalotic in the ICU and diuresis worsened the alkalosis through chloride loss (not sure of the exact mechanism here) and the patient has not yet normalized.
Acetazolamide has been shown to increase renal bicarb excretion and correct post-hypercapnic alkalosis quickly. Yet, in this pt. I would just replete chloride and potassium with KCL and/or NaCl.
PO2 of 61 correlates to an O2 sat near 90%. Supplemental O2 would not necessarily be needed and may further increased PCO2 by reducing RR and minute ventilation. In this case, I would give no more than 2 L by NC.
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but...
March 5th, 2008 at 12:15 am
patient’s CHF and COPD lead to poor gas exchange which leads CO2 retention leading to central chemoreceptors being adapted to chronically high pCO2, and so the peripheral receptors are keeping the patient’s breathing levels steady from low paO2.
His kidneys are fully compensating for the respiratory acidosis.
Avoid giving supplemental oxygen which could depress peripheral receptors and lead to respiratory distress.
Using potassium-sparing and loop-diuretics (if that’s how you define ‘aggressive’) would lead to hypokalemia. Give concentrated potassium IV.
But I’m just an idiot at this point…
DHS
March 15th, 2008 at 7:49 am
Eric – Stewart acid-base predicts that diuretics cause a hypochloraemic alkalosis.
I agree with Eric that there is a metabolic alkalosis (from diuretic use) with a superimposed respiratory acidosis such that the resulting alkalaemia is minimal.
What I would do for the patient: ignore the acid-base, and treat the patient. Is he clinically well? What was his premorbid level of functioning and SpO2? It may be that the metabolic alkalosis is depressing his respiratory drive (leading to the depressed PO2) but if he is not in distress from this, I would leave it alone. If he is still having problems CCF I would optimise Tx for that first. The CAL will not kill him acutely so I would ignore that, and the metabolic alkalosis will resolve itself once the aggressive natriuresis (and ensuing diuresis) ceases — the kidneys are very efficient at getting rid of HCO3.
I would like to see this patient’s electrolytes, especially the Cl and Na. It may be that he may benefit from very gentle 3NS.
Dr bikash Bhattacharjee
June 8th, 2008 at 6:33 am
patient has 2 problem beforehand-
1.COPD he should have CO2 alredy increased at his level of respiratory insufficiency before intubation aggravated by acute on chronic heart failure
2.CHF which has an element of hyperaldosteronism as defence mechanism to increase effecive arterial volume.
in this scenerio as decompesation sets in respiratory and acute heart failure triggered aggressive therapy: ventilator therapy which is needed and diuretic therapy to possibly control pulmonary edema.possibly thiscourse of treatment continued in right earnest till it was seen his parameters improved to an usual normal values.he was extubated.
present scenerio:
he has alkalemia due to
1.overzealous ventilatio on ventilator to make pCO2 exactly normal which is equavalent to hyperventilation and alkalosis kidney appropriately responding producing more HCO3-. With extubation this cotinued producing metabolic alkalosis.
2.Aggressive diuretic therapy with loop diuretics which causes along with ECF volume loss excassive chloride loss. body volume control mechanism now to retain Na+ require HCO3- as anion resulting metabolic alkalosis.as secondary hyperaldosteronism may also produce hypokalemia.
this alkalosis may produce inhibition of respiratory center producing hypercapnia and hypoxia which is present in this patient.
Treatment:
1.On cardiac front: as effective circulatory volume is reduced from disease and drug it should be cautiosly replenished with both NaCl and KCl administration. as hyperaldosteronism is present aldosteron antagoist like spironolacton should be prescribed. diuretic therapy should be administered moe judiciously.Other cardiac active drugs like ACE-ihibitor or ARB-antagonist or even digitalis prescribed. Betablocker is probably cotraindicated here.
2.On respiratory front as he is just out of ventilator no point jumping into it again. noninvasive ventilaion with BiPAP or even CPAP may be tried.To inrease effective ventilation administration of bronchodilator or agentlike ipatropium may be administered.
B