"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong." - HL Mencken
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"I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand." - Confucius
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"The good physician treats the disease; the great physician treats the patient who has the disease" - Sir William Osler
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" The best test of a person's character is how he or she treats those with less power." - Bob Sutton
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"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them - well, I have others." - Groucho Marx
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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
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"It is hard enough to remember my opinions, without also remembering my reasons for them" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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"Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple." - Charles Mingus
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"Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." - Albert Einstein
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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesman and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
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"This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around." - Talking Heads, Life During Wartime
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"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbour. This is the whole Torah; all the rest is commentary. Go and learn it." - Hillel, Talmud, Shabbath 31a
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"You will never understand bureaucracies until you understand that for bureaucrats procedure is everything and outcomes are nothing." - Thomas Sowell
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"An idealist is one who, on noticing that a rose smells better than a cabbage, concludes that it will also make better soup." - HL Mencken
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"If you only have a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail." - Abraham Maslow
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"A great teacher is one who realizes that he himself is also a student and whose goal is not to dictate the answers, but to stimulate his students creativity enough so that they go out and find the answers themselves." - Herbie Hancock
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"There are no facts, only interpretations." - Nietzsche
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"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you do know and what you don't." - Anatole France
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"In character, in manner, in style, in all things, the supreme excellence is simplicity." - Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
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Workouts by month - Goal 200 from 11/1/09 through 10/31/10
The ACP Advocate Blog by Bob Doherty: "There once was a man named O'Bama ..." http://ow.ly/1nUH3 - HCR limericks and a cold one for BobMarch 18, 2010 5:24
http://ow.ly/1mYi7 - ABIM MOC program - two differing viewpoints - you can guess my voteMarch 16, 2010 5:06
RT @yejnes: My thoughts on the annual exam, etc., final letter ACP Internist, March 2010 http://bit.ly/9FNcXn wel-stated & importantMarch 15, 2010 12:47
A note to the professors, from the "real" world, on the use of ICDs in a fee for service community... http://ow.ly/1jaPy - great postMarch 13, 2010 2:19
RT @paulinechen: New "Doctor and Patient"; Learning to Keep Patients Safe in a Culture of Fear http://nyti.ms/bYA14V - blog post comingMarch 12, 2010 1:35
RT @tom_peters: @kevinmd Spoken like an MD. - true primary care is very complex - it is not simple care -March 11, 2010 12:43
RT @efalchuk: Seriously, what is Nancy Pelosi Talking About? http://bit.ly/9sHSc2 #healthreform #hcr #healthcare think Dazed and ConfusedMarch 10, 2010 7:53
Obama Says Health Overhaul Should Trump Politics - http://nyti.ms/bwKRyo - and he is correctMarch 8, 2010 7:28
Ask most any health care worker what they think of HIPAA – and they will develop a pained expression, and the stutter, and then begin telling horror stories.
My most recent involved a patient who came in for a drug related problem. My resident recognized that the patient was a known most wanted criminal. So I called security, who told me that because of HIPAA we could not notify the police. She eventually left the hospital with IV in place to avoid arrest.
This article has a series of anecdotes which are not exaggerations.
As too often happens, a good idea is mangled when Congress sculpts a law.
You should blame your local state laws more than HIPAA, and also the interpretation of medical ethics consensus and local HIPAA interpretation.
First there is the issue of medical ethics. The boundary between ethical treatment and crime has always been a troublesome one. The consensus seems to be that medical ethics based privacy should not be used to conceal a crime, assist in a crime, or interfere in its investigation. Whether a doctor should initiate a report that a patient happens to also be a wanted criminal falls into a grey area. Does this threaten the ability of all persons (including criminals) to have access to medical treatment? The ethics consensus is that criminals should have the same access as anyone else. It is unclear how that applies to your particular case.
HIPAA is clear on this issue. It defers to local state law. It specifically permits disclosures related to crimes in progress, crimes observed, evidence of crimes, explicit threats of crimes, and medical records in response to specific targeted legal requests (subject to some limits, such as DNA records). None of those seem to apply to your particular case. For your case HIPAA says: follow the local laws.
Also, HIPAA allows disclosure of names of patients in the hospital as a default. Alerting the authorities to the presence of someone at the hospital is NOT a HIPAA violation and does not even require the deferral to state law mentioned in the above comment.
HIPAA and local laws and policies are selective, aren’t they? Rightfully, medical personal are required by law to report suspected child abuse. No problem there with privacy rights, thank goodness. But if a most-wanted murderer walks into your ER, you can’t call the police? Arghhhh.
Peggy, the selectivity is fairly simple in your examples. The report of suspected child abuse comes under not using medical ethics as a reason to conceal evidence of a crime. Your hypothetical murderer is supposed to be reported if they were observed to commit a crime, are committing a crime, are about to commit one, or are threatening to commit one.
The situation with reporting the presence of accused criminals is more subjective. Will you report the presence of a person accused of failure to pay a library fine, and hence subject to arrest? Will you compare all of your patient admissions against the national warrant databases? Do you think that by doing so you would deter people who might otherwise seek medical treatment? Is that appropriate and ethical?
If you plan only to report selectively, which warrant databases will you search? Which accusations will be worth reporting? If you plan to report only felonies, will you be reporting all instances of homosexual activity in Georgia? Will you be reporting all patients who desire treatment to address substance abuse problems? Those are felonies.
These are not simple issues. I can accept not reporting the presence of accused criminals of any sort, provided they are not in any way threatening anyone. I would report any evidence of a crime that I might happen to find while treating them, e.g., gun wounds.
Your argument is reasonable. Comparing patients’ names against an LEA warrant data base would be absurd. On the other hand if a dangerous felon were recognized by staff, I think there should be a responsibility to call the police.
If a Ted Bundy had strolled into your ER, are you saying it would be ethical to simply treat him and not report his presence to the police? I think there’s a civic and moral responsibility here, to prevent terrible risks to unsuspecting citizens if you don’t report.
In the Bundy case, go ahead and break the law. The HIPAA fine is less than the fine for running a red light, and under those circumstances is unlikely to be enforced. Rather than encumber the rules with excessive detail I prefer simpler laws and a recognition that there will be occasions where the right thing to do is break the rules and take the consequences. I’ve deliberately run red lights for lesser cause.
The HIPAA fine for non-malicious violations is maximum $100/person/violation. Arresting a Bundy would be worth a small fine. On the other hand, if it is a well known dangerous person, why aren’t the visitors and patients calling the police? They are under no obligation to protect his privacy at all.
Last time I had someone wanted by the police, they waited until the guy was ready to be discharged, then they put the cuffs on him as he walked to the elevator.
That way, the county didn’t get hit with the hospital bill. Apparently, at least in my area, the moment the hospital patient gets cuffed to the bed, the hospital bill is now on the county’s tab.
Dr. Sammual Mudd comes to mind. Set the leg of JW Boothe who had a day previous killed A. Lincoln. Dr Mudd failed to notify authorities and ended up in a Fed Pen.
10 Responses to Paved with good intentions
rjh
July 3rd, 2007 at 11:36 am
You should blame your local state laws more than HIPAA, and also the interpretation of medical ethics consensus and local HIPAA interpretation.
First there is the issue of medical ethics. The boundary between ethical treatment and crime has always been a troublesome one. The consensus seems to be that medical ethics based privacy should not be used to conceal a crime, assist in a crime, or interfere in its investigation. Whether a doctor should initiate a report that a patient happens to also be a wanted criminal falls into a grey area. Does this threaten the ability of all persons (including criminals) to have access to medical treatment? The ethics consensus is that criminals should have the same access as anyone else. It is unclear how that applies to your particular case.
HIPAA is clear on this issue. It defers to local state law. It specifically permits disclosures related to crimes in progress, crimes observed, evidence of crimes, explicit threats of crimes, and medical records in response to specific targeted legal requests (subject to some limits, such as DNA records). None of those seem to apply to your particular case. For your case HIPAA says: follow the local laws.
See section 164.512(f), it’s about one page long.
elliottg
July 3rd, 2007 at 11:53 am
Also, HIPAA allows disclosure of names of patients in the hospital as a default. Alerting the authorities to the presence of someone at the hospital is NOT a HIPAA violation and does not even require the deferral to state law mentioned in the above comment.
Peggy
July 3rd, 2007 at 12:39 pm
HIPAA and local laws and policies are selective, aren’t they? Rightfully, medical personal are required by law to report suspected child abuse. No problem there with privacy rights, thank goodness. But if a most-wanted murderer walks into your ER, you can’t call the police? Arghhhh.
rjh
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Peggy, the selectivity is fairly simple in your examples. The report of suspected child abuse comes under not using medical ethics as a reason to conceal evidence of a crime. Your hypothetical murderer is supposed to be reported if they were observed to commit a crime, are committing a crime, are about to commit one, or are threatening to commit one.
The situation with reporting the presence of accused criminals is more subjective. Will you report the presence of a person accused of failure to pay a library fine, and hence subject to arrest? Will you compare all of your patient admissions against the national warrant databases? Do you think that by doing so you would deter people who might otherwise seek medical treatment? Is that appropriate and ethical?
If you plan only to report selectively, which warrant databases will you search? Which accusations will be worth reporting? If you plan to report only felonies, will you be reporting all instances of homosexual activity in Georgia? Will you be reporting all patients who desire treatment to address substance abuse problems? Those are felonies.
These are not simple issues. I can accept not reporting the presence of accused criminals of any sort, provided they are not in any way threatening anyone. I would report any evidence of a crime that I might happen to find while treating them, e.g., gun wounds.
Peggy
July 3rd, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Your argument is reasonable. Comparing patients’ names against an LEA warrant data base would be absurd. On the other hand if a dangerous felon were recognized by staff, I think there should be a responsibility to call the police.
If a Ted Bundy had strolled into your ER, are you saying it would be ethical to simply treat him and not report his presence to the police? I think there’s a civic and moral responsibility here, to prevent terrible risks to unsuspecting citizens if you don’t report.
rjh
July 3rd, 2007 at 4:02 pm
In the Bundy case, go ahead and break the law. The HIPAA fine is less than the fine for running a red light, and under those circumstances is unlikely to be enforced. Rather than encumber the rules with excessive detail I prefer simpler laws and a recognition that there will be occasions where the right thing to do is break the rules and take the consequences. I’ve deliberately run red lights for lesser cause.
The HIPAA fine for non-malicious violations is maximum $100/person/violation. Arresting a Bundy would be worth a small fine. On the other hand, if it is a well known dangerous person, why aren’t the visitors and patients calling the police? They are under no obligation to protect his privacy at all.
jhk
July 3rd, 2007 at 5:25 pm
I wonder if Dr. Mudd is turning in his grave.
no one
July 4th, 2007 at 9:40 pm
Last time I had someone wanted by the police, they waited until the guy was ready to be discharged, then they put the cuffs on him as he walked to the elevator.
That way, the county didn’t get hit with the hospital bill. Apparently, at least in my area, the moment the hospital patient gets cuffed to the bed, the hospital bill is now on the county’s tab.
I mean I’m just sayin’
emily sheffer md
July 6th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
These situations are giving rise to new legislation, modifying HIPAA to allow hospitals to alert law enforcement without penalty. for example: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/Summary.aspx?bill=6106&year=2005
JG
August 27th, 2007 at 11:54 am
Dr. Sammual Mudd comes to mind. Set the leg of JW Boothe who had a day previous killed A. Lincoln. Dr Mudd failed to notify authorities and ended up in a Fed Pen.