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	<title>Comments on: Too many CT scans</title>
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	<description>Internal medicine, American health care, and especially medical education</description>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-488583</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 10:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-488583</guid>
		<description>Anyone who criticizes technology overuse as a waste of $ that does not account for savings due to decreased unnecessary surgery is not worth the bandwidth.  This was a retrospective non-randomized study that implies that the 2 groups were similar because the WBC were the same.  Possibly the patients who appeared sicker were sent to CT to evaluate for diverticulitis (can present with RLQ symptoms).  Maybe there were more women in the sicker group- harder to tell what&#039;s PID and what is an appendicitis.  In my experience, complications from appendicitis, even if ruptured, are rare.  Dr Chen must be under severe pressure to publish a paper, any paper.  GIGO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyone who criticizes technology overuse as a waste of $ that does not account for savings due to decreased unnecessary surgery is not worth the bandwidth.  This was a retrospective non-randomized study that implies that the 2 groups were similar because the WBC were the same.  Possibly the patients who appeared sicker were sent to CT to evaluate for diverticulitis (can present with RLQ symptoms).  Maybe there were more women in the sicker group- harder to tell what&#8217;s PID and what is an appendicitis.  In my experience, complications from appendicitis, even if ruptured, are rare.  Dr Chen must be under severe pressure to publish a paper, any paper.  GIGO.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-481077</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2007 00:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-481077</guid>
		<description>One must consider that there are other reasons for which ER docs order studies.

Ever tried to get a surgeon to operate on a patient without a CT?  Often, the answer is &quot;Call me back when you have the CT.&quot;

Ever tried to admit a patient to the medicine service with a clinical diagnosis?  Many will say, &quot;Call me back when you have the lab values.&quot;

There are those physicians who insist that every patient over the age of 60 have their cardiac enzymes checked, regardless of whether there is an indication.  &quot;What are the enzymes?&quot; / &quot;I did not--&quot; / &quot;Please pull a first set of enzymes, then call me back.&quot;

The ER may order too many studies, but one must consider that these studies are often ordered due to pressure from consultants and admitting physicians, often from those who have not yet met the patient in person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One must consider that there are other reasons for which ER docs order studies.</p>
<p>Ever tried to get a surgeon to operate on a patient without a CT?  Often, the answer is &#8220;Call me back when you have the CT.&#8221;</p>
<p>Ever tried to admit a patient to the medicine service with a clinical diagnosis?  Many will say, &#8220;Call me back when you have the lab values.&#8221;</p>
<p>There are those physicians who insist that every patient over the age of 60 have their cardiac enzymes checked, regardless of whether there is an indication.  &#8220;What are the enzymes?&#8221; / &#8220;I did not&#8211;&#8221; / &#8220;Please pull a first set of enzymes, then call me back.&#8221;</p>
<p>The ER may order too many studies, but one must consider that these studies are often ordered due to pressure from consultants and admitting physicians, often from those who have not yet met the patient in person.</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-477450</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 13:25:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-477450</guid>
		<description>How much litigation is there over a botched appendicitis diagnosis? For that matter, how many cases are there where a doctor can reasonably fail to diagnose appendicitis following the taking of a history, a physical examination and a review of lab test results? If Josh is correct, a big culprit here would appear to be a loss of skill or (for lack of a better word) laziness on the part of the surgeon - that&#039;s not reassuring.

The last time I spoke to a medical malpractice lawyer about the misdiagnosis of appendicitis as a possible cause of action, his response was that there&#039;s not enough money  in it. &quot;Tort reform&quot; measures make it so costly to bring a malpractice case that, even with obvious malpractice resulting in a ruptured appendix, it&#039;s not economically viable to bring a lawsuit. The patient usually ends up with pretty much the same scar and, even assuming a day or two in the hospital to recover from a more serious surgery or infection, that doesn&#039;t translate into appreciable damages.

Are malpractice lawsuits truly more common in clinics or hospitals with limited access to CT scans, as opposed to those which have a surfeit of available machines? It has always been my impression that those hospitals most apt to order the type of CT scan or MRI you would deem &quot;unnecessary&quot; is significantly more interested in maximizing the return on its capital investment than in avoiding malpractice litigation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How much litigation is there over a botched appendicitis diagnosis? For that matter, how many cases are there where a doctor can reasonably fail to diagnose appendicitis following the taking of a history, a physical examination and a review of lab test results? If Josh is correct, a big culprit here would appear to be a loss of skill or (for lack of a better word) laziness on the part of the surgeon &#8211; that&#8217;s not reassuring.</p>
<p>The last time I spoke to a medical malpractice lawyer about the misdiagnosis of appendicitis as a possible cause of action, his response was that there&#8217;s not enough money  in it. &#8220;Tort reform&#8221; measures make it so costly to bring a malpractice case that, even with obvious malpractice resulting in a ruptured appendix, it&#8217;s not economically viable to bring a lawsuit. The patient usually ends up with pretty much the same scar and, even assuming a day or two in the hospital to recover from a more serious surgery or infection, that doesn&#8217;t translate into appreciable damages.</p>
<p>Are malpractice lawsuits truly more common in clinics or hospitals with limited access to CT scans, as opposed to those which have a surfeit of available machines? It has always been my impression that those hospitals most apt to order the type of CT scan or MRI you would deem &#8220;unnecessary&#8221; is significantly more interested in maximizing the return on its capital investment than in avoiding malpractice litigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-477444</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 12:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-477444</guid>
		<description>Long time lurker, but I feel I have to chime in here.  As a soon (6 weeks) to graduate EM resident, I think it is necessary to actually deliniate what we do in the ED.  At my residency, where we work at 3 different large teaching institutions, it is almost impossible to get a surgeon to see a patient without a CT scan showing an appy.  As Dr. Centor said &quot;Prior to CT scans, we diagnosed appendicitis clinically&quot;.  However this is become a lost skill among surgeons and they do not want negative lap rates.  In addition, you are right, we do CTs in order to decrease liabilty because missed appy is still one of the largest EM malpractice drivers out there.

&quot;This study suggests that we need not perform CT scans in the obvious group.&quot;  The classic appendicitis presentation is not actually that common (some studies say only 10-20%)

Finally, I do not have access to medscape, so I cannot comment on this article which comments on a journal publication that is not listed.  Is Dr. Chen an EM doc, a surgeon, a radiologist or a hospitalist, because of course all of these groups have their own biases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long time lurker, but I feel I have to chime in here.  As a soon (6 weeks) to graduate EM resident, I think it is necessary to actually deliniate what we do in the ED.  At my residency, where we work at 3 different large teaching institutions, it is almost impossible to get a surgeon to see a patient without a CT scan showing an appy.  As Dr. Centor said &#8220;Prior to CT scans, we diagnosed appendicitis clinically&#8221;.  However this is become a lost skill among surgeons and they do not want negative lap rates.  In addition, you are right, we do CTs in order to decrease liabilty because missed appy is still one of the largest EM malpractice drivers out there.</p>
<p>&#8220;This study suggests that we need not perform CT scans in the obvious group.&#8221;  The classic appendicitis presentation is not actually that common (some studies say only 10-20%)</p>
<p>Finally, I do not have access to medscape, so I cannot comment on this article which comments on a journal publication that is not listed.  Is Dr. Chen an EM doc, a surgeon, a radiologist or a hospitalist, because of course all of these groups have their own biases.</p>
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		<title>By: Stalwart Hospitalist</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-477350</link>
		<dc:creator>Stalwart Hospitalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 06:49:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-477350</guid>
		<description>ScutMonkey --

I must take issue with your contention that emergency department use of technology and imaging is &quot;not a really big piece of the pie&quot; of healthcare cost increases -- the underlying sentiment is that focused intervention on utilization reduction should be directed elsewhere (i.e., end-of-life care).

Healthcare costs are so out of control that we will never begin to solve the problem by only attacking the largest contributing factor -- any reasonably sizable contributing factor is worthy of attention and intervention.  My own home institution has witnessed an explosion in abdominal CT imaging volume and thoracic CT angiography volume since these technologies became available, and the vast majority of these studies are negative (internal QI data).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ScutMonkey &#8211;</p>
<p>I must take issue with your contention that emergency department use of technology and imaging is &#8220;not a really big piece of the pie&#8221; of healthcare cost increases &#8212; the underlying sentiment is that focused intervention on utilization reduction should be directed elsewhere (i.e., end-of-life care).</p>
<p>Healthcare costs are so out of control that we will never begin to solve the problem by only attacking the largest contributing factor &#8212; any reasonably sizable contributing factor is worthy of attention and intervention.  My own home institution has witnessed an explosion in abdominal CT imaging volume and thoracic CT angiography volume since these technologies became available, and the vast majority of these studies are negative (internal QI data).</p>
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		<title>By: Judy</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-477277</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 20:22:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-477277</guid>
		<description>Makes sense to me. If the case is one you&#039;d almost certainly take to surgery even if the CT is negative (because sometimes they are even when the patient has appendicitis) why should you waste the time or money on a CT? Then there&#039;s the radiation - not inconsiderable. 

Save the CT&#039;s for the odd presentation where you&#039;re not sure what&#039;s going on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes sense to me. If the case is one you&#8217;d almost certainly take to surgery even if the CT is negative (because sometimes they are even when the patient has appendicitis) why should you waste the time or money on a CT? Then there&#8217;s the radiation &#8211; not inconsiderable. </p>
<p>Save the CT&#8217;s for the odd presentation where you&#8217;re not sure what&#8217;s going on.</p>
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		<title>By: ScutMonkey</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/3240/comment-page-1#comment-477264</link>
		<dc:creator>ScutMonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 17:59:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/index.php/archives/3240#comment-477264</guid>
		<description>We used to diagnose all sorts of stuff before we had any technology, so don&#039;t we just go back to that era? 

Yes, technology is over-used and it drives up healthcare costs in many ways but I don&#039;t thin the ED use of technology is really a big piece of the pie. It is what happens to the patients after they are admitted that account for the largest portion. (i.e. end of life care)

There are risks other than the cost to the system with unnecessary ABD CT&#039;s, such as rads for the patient. A confused &amp; emergent environment, such as an ED, is notthe place to start refusing simple diagnostic tests because we are afraid of driving up the bill. There are many places in medicine costs can be improved but the ED is one of the last places we need to start cutting back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We used to diagnose all sorts of stuff before we had any technology, so don&#8217;t we just go back to that era? </p>
<p>Yes, technology is over-used and it drives up healthcare costs in many ways but I don&#8217;t thin the ED use of technology is really a big piece of the pie. It is what happens to the patients after they are admitted that account for the largest portion. (i.e. end of life care)</p>
<p>There are risks other than the cost to the system with unnecessary ABD CT&#8217;s, such as rads for the patient. A confused &amp; emergent environment, such as an ED, is notthe place to start refusing simple diagnostic tests because we are afraid of driving up the bill. There are many places in medicine costs can be improved but the ED is one of the last places we need to start cutting back.</p>
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