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	<title>Comments on: Patient&#8217;s rights and managed care</title>
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	<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994</link>
	<description>Contemplating medicine and the health care system</description>
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		<title>By: hope</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-4019</link>
		<dc:creator>hope</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:49:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-4019</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think the coverage v treatment distinction is an artificial one. An HMO&#039;s refusal to cover a procedure doesn&#039;t keep a patient from getting it if its really needed or wanted. What keeps a patient from getting it is either the patient&#039;s inability to pay privately thus choosing not to get the care, or a provider&#039;s unwillingness to perform a needed but noncovered procedure at reduced or no cost.

I mean, sure - sue the HMO and get a court to say its covered. But we can&#039;t pretend that patients and providers don&#039;t make economic decisions about the care obtained/delivered in much the same way as an HMO does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think the coverage v treatment distinction is an artificial one. An HMO&#8217;s refusal to cover a procedure doesn&#8217;t keep a patient from getting it if its really needed or wanted. What keeps a patient from getting it is either the patient&#8217;s inability to pay privately thus choosing not to get the care, or a provider&#8217;s unwillingness to perform a needed but noncovered procedure at reduced or no cost.</p>
<p>I mean, sure &#8211; sue the HMO and get a court to say its covered. But we can&#8217;t pretend that patients and providers don&#8217;t make economic decisions about the care obtained/delivered in much the same way as an HMO does.</p>
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		<title>By: Carey</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-3998</link>
		<dc:creator>Carey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2004 17:14:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-3998</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m happy to agree that HMOs make medical decisions by denying care.  I&#039;m also happy to agree that medical decisions have to consider costs relative to benefits.  It&#039;s true that we can&#039;t afford everything for everybody.

Perhaps one problem with the Court&#039;s interpretation of ERISA is that it artificially separates &quot;coverage&quot; decisions from &quot;treatment&quot; decisions.  Very few actual decisions are purely one or the other, but the only context in which the Court acknowledges this bit of reality is in situations like the one in &lt;i&gt;Pegram v. Herdrich&lt;/i&gt;: a physician who is part of a staff-model HMO.

I think it&#039;s obvious that decisions about coverage and treatment are &quot;mixed&quot; in WAY MORE cases than just this one.

Many of the readers here are docs, and virtually all of us are covered by health plans.  This is a question that each of us should be able to answer from our own personal experience.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m happy to agree that HMOs make medical decisions by denying care.  I&#8217;m also happy to agree that medical decisions have to consider costs relative to benefits.  It&#8217;s true that we can&#8217;t afford everything for everybody.</p>
<p>Perhaps one problem with the Court&#8217;s interpretation of ERISA is that it artificially separates &#8220;coverage&#8221; decisions from &#8220;treatment&#8221; decisions.  Very few actual decisions are purely one or the other, but the only context in which the Court acknowledges this bit of reality is in situations like the one in <i>Pegram v. Herdrich</i>: a physician who is part of a staff-model HMO.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s obvious that decisions about coverage and treatment are &#8220;mixed&#8221; in WAY MORE cases than just this one.</p>
<p>Many of the readers here are docs, and virtually all of us are covered by health plans.  This is a question that each of us should be able to answer from our own personal experience.</p>
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		<title>By: jb</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-3996</link>
		<dc:creator>jb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2004 02:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-3996</guid>
		<description>You’re forgetting what an HMO is.

If you want an insurance plan that will pay for EVERYTHING your doctor thinks you need, buy an indemnity plan that has no pre-certification requirement.  What, you can’t find one that you can afford?  They have been pretty much priced out of the market for all but the very wealthy. What you get for substantially lower premiums in an HMO is less in return. There are limitations on which providers you can access, and on what they can do.  Sometimes, inevitably, the HMO bureaucracy will do something that in retrospect was really boneheaded.  In our system, the trial lawyers would put them out of business in a New York minute, and then you’re back to no affordable health care for a lot of non-wealthy people.  When HMOs were designed, their marketers knew that they needed statutory protection from lawsuits for them to be viable.  That is why the law reads the way it does.  It’s analogous to the statutory protection the vaccine makers demanded to continue production.  If you want the undeniable good results of mass vaccinations, you have to accept that a few people are going to get hurt and not get the lottery sized compensation that he lawyers have trained us to demand.

You can’t have rich folks’ medicine at poor folks’ prices.  We simply can’t afford everything for everybody.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You’re forgetting what an HMO is.</p>
<p>If you want an insurance plan that will pay for EVERYTHING your doctor thinks you need, buy an indemnity plan that has no pre-certification requirement.  What, you can’t find one that you can afford?  They have been pretty much priced out of the market for all but the very wealthy. What you get for substantially lower premiums in an HMO is less in return. There are limitations on which providers you can access, and on what they can do.  Sometimes, inevitably, the HMO bureaucracy will do something that in retrospect was really boneheaded.  In our system, the trial lawyers would put them out of business in a New York minute, and then you’re back to no affordable health care for a lot of non-wealthy people.  When HMOs were designed, their marketers knew that they needed statutory protection from lawsuits for them to be viable.  That is why the law reads the way it does.  It’s analogous to the statutory protection the vaccine makers demanded to continue production.  If you want the undeniable good results of mass vaccinations, you have to accept that a few people are going to get hurt and not get the lottery sized compensation that he lawyers have trained us to demand.</p>
<p>You can’t have rich folks’ medicine at poor folks’ prices.  We simply can’t afford everything for everybody.</p>
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		<title>By: John Fembup</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-3995</link>
		<dc:creator>John Fembup</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2004 01:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-3995</guid>
		<description>&quot;Supreme Court’s decision Monday to limit the ability of states to allow patients denied medical care to sue their health plans for damages&quot;

ERISA set down that limit as law. The SC reminds everyone that the law still means what it said when Congress wrote it.

&quot;apparent the SC justices sided with the arguments of the lawyers representing the HMOs&quot;

The Supreme Court, functioning exactly as it should, came down on the side of the law.

Congress created this mess and Congress is going to have to fix it.  Three years ago, Congress wimped out on patients&#039; rights legislation.  I&#039;ll bet it wimps out again. After all, a chain of wimps is only as strong as the weakest wimp.

But to blame any of this on the Supreme Court is at best lazy thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Supreme Court’s decision Monday to limit the ability of states to allow patients denied medical care to sue their health plans for damages&#8221;</p>
<p>ERISA set down that limit as law. The SC reminds everyone that the law still means what it said when Congress wrote it.</p>
<p>&#8220;apparent the SC justices sided with the arguments of the lawyers representing the HMOs&#8221;</p>
<p>The Supreme Court, functioning exactly as it should, came down on the side of the law.</p>
<p>Congress created this mess and Congress is going to have to fix it.  Three years ago, Congress wimped out on patients&#8217; rights legislation.  I&#8217;ll bet it wimps out again. After all, a chain of wimps is only as strong as the weakest wimp.</p>
<p>But to blame any of this on the Supreme Court is at best lazy thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: RGL</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-3991</link>
		<dc:creator>RGL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-3991</guid>
		<description>I agree with DB&#039;s sentiments about this issue, but it is apparent the SC justices sided with the arguments of the lawyers representing the HMOs.

One, allowing patients to sue HMOs in state courts would drive up the costs for employers; second, the majesty of the federal law should be upheld over those of state rights, which essentially would reinforce the same language when ERISA was crafted 30 years ago. 

I have read the background of the two cases filed in Texas, and the actions contested by the plaintiffs are practices not confined to HMOs, but allowed by companies outside of managed care as well.

Disputes can now be resolved by panels of physicians. If this mechanism does not work to the satisfaction of  patients, Congress may have a chance to finally craft a Patients&#039; Bill of Rights.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with DB&#8217;s sentiments about this issue, but it is apparent the SC justices sided with the arguments of the lawyers representing the HMOs.</p>
<p>One, allowing patients to sue HMOs in state courts would drive up the costs for employers; second, the majesty of the federal law should be upheld over those of state rights, which essentially would reinforce the same language when ERISA was crafted 30 years ago. </p>
<p>I have read the background of the two cases filed in Texas, and the actions contested by the plaintiffs are practices not confined to HMOs, but allowed by companies outside of managed care as well.</p>
<p>Disputes can now be resolved by panels of physicians. If this mechanism does not work to the satisfaction of  patients, Congress may have a chance to finally craft a Patients&#8217; Bill of Rights.</p>
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		<title>By: Living With Diabetes</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-3990</link>
		<dc:creator>Living With Diabetes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2004 22:14:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-3990</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Suing HMOs&lt;/strong&gt;
DB&#039;s Medical Rants » Patientâ€™s rights and managed care And of course, this is one that I&#039;m going to be on the side of -- if the doctor orders, the insurance company should pay. I feel 100% better because of...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Suing HMOs</strong><br />
DB&#8217;s Medical Rants » Patientâ€™s rights and managed care And of course, this is one that I&#8217;m going to be on the side of &#8212; if the doctor orders, the insurance company should pay. I feel 100% better because of&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bill reith</title>
		<link>http://www.medrants.com/archives/1994/comment-page-1#comment-3989</link>
		<dc:creator>bill reith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jun 2004 19:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://medrants.com/archives/2004/06/24/patients-rights-and-managed-care/#comment-3989</guid>
		<description>Okay, this is caviling. But -- they&#039;re not denying care.  They&#039;re denying payment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, this is caviling. But &#8212; they&#8217;re not denying care.  They&#8217;re denying payment.</p>
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